Thursday, May 05, 2005

A god-like intelligence wanting to understand the workings of our civilization might not be content with occasional "reconnaissance missions" or eavesdropping on our broadcasts. Perhaps nothing less than a robust, interactive simulation -- with the aliens playing the roles of indigenous inhabitants -- would suffice. In this case, for the simulation to bear anthropological fruit, it would behoove the aliens to think they really were Earthlings, complete with artificial memories. Only upon exiting the simulation would they remember their actual nature. So maybe Earth as we know it is actually an alien virtual reality constructed as a sort of "Jurassic Park" in which to observe human society from the inside out. Or maybe, less glamorously, we're all amnesiac participants in a vast nonhuman chat-room or first-person video game.

As a (presumed) Earthling, I like the idea that there's some nobler purpose to our existence, even if we're ultimately nothing more than a flux of electrons inside from unfathomable alien computer. Just as some of us enjoy historical simulations such as Renaissance fairs, an arbitrarily advanced civilization -- either alien or human -- might decide to reconstruct a time-period for educational purposes. Indeed, we are fortunate (?) to find ourselves living in such a pivotal time, possibly just years away from achieving the technological "Singularity" predicted by some futurists.

Humans have existed for untold thousands of years, but only recently have we developed the capability to transcend our home planet or, conversely, extinguish all life upon it. If we are in fact experiencing the early 21st century in "real time" (and not as a VR recording), then it's tempting to envision future scholars, endowed with immense computing power, creating a simulated version of our era -- and then, just maybe, immersing themselves in it for the sake of understanding.

This scenario is unabashedly hopeful, as it implies that there is a future for humankind. On a darker note, we could be the computational spawn of alien archaeologists, doomed to simulate our own impending demise.

39 comments:

razorsmile said...

I think godlike intelligences would have better things to do, n'est pas?

Mac said...

If you presuppose a truly "godlike" intelligence, then it's natural to assume it may have staggering computing resources at its disposal. It's also a good bet it will have little or no interest in such things as making money, eating, sleeping, etc. Its reason for being might very well be to gather information. In that case, simulating all that ever was (or ever will be) may be a defining aspect.

Anonymous said...

Might not an immortal, extremely powerful Intelligence actually create a world (or entire Solar System) and cultivate certain evolutionary products in physical form rather than simply running a computer simulation? Even a quantum hypercomputer simulation is likely to have limitations that the "real thing" does not. A true Immortal (having literally "all the time in world") would not care if it took a few billion years to "grow" an intelligent species like human beings. Also, might there not be some kind of test we can perform to assure ourselves that we are what we think we are and NOT simply a computer simulation? (Basic scientfic principle: theories must be testable. If they're not, they can never lead to real knowledge.)

Mac said...

Nice thought, WMB. We tend to get hung up with computer simulations when the best substrate might not be "cyberspace" after all, but right here in good old "meatspace."

Mac said...

Here's an old PB post you might enjoy:

http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com/2004/03/we-are-here-to-fail.html

razorsmile said...

I like the Cure quote at the end: very humanity-as-single-organism.

Mac said...

The Cure have a quote for anything.

Anonymous said...

I'd imagine that anyone who has the knowledge to create an accurate enough simulation wouldn't need to actually create the simulation.

Mac said...

"I'd imagine that anyone who has the knowledge to create an accurate enough simulation wouldn't need to actually create the simulation."

Yet scientists who are smart enough to create amazingly accurate simulations use them all the time to detect emergent phenomena.

Anonymous said...

The most interesting scientific simulations are those in which things like star system formation or, indeed, the formation of galaxies themselves out of the primordial "quark soup" are simulated. However, these ARE simulated because we can't (yet) recreate the universe or even a star system and the time scale is just too long to observe in real time.... OK, so what I'd really like to see is a version of the "Sims" online game in which THE SIMS KNOW THEY'RE SIMS! (How would this affect their behavior? Might they not take "life" quite so seriously?)

Anonymous said...

BTW, Mac, I did look at the archived post you suggested. I find the idea that we are somebody's diabolical experiment oddly appealing somehow. (I think this notion is distantly related to the old gnostic idea that the world was created by an evil being.) But if this is the case, doesn't this kind of trash all of our transhuman and posthuman aspirations (hence "Posthuman Blues"?)

Mac said...

Knowing that we're someone else's project is enpowering in the sense that, theoretically, we can become more real, and I think that's the power behind transhumanist philosophy -- that we can dispense with illusion once and for all and experience the Cosmos as rational beings.

Anonymous said...

of course we know our history only based on the say so and available evidence inherent in the simulation...and if the evidence changed...would our memories of it change as well?

Mac said...

"would our memories of it change as well?"

Our memories could be selectively edited at any time -- but that might detract from the whole point of the simulation if its purpose is to figure out some kind of problem.

razorsmile said...

"would our memories of it change as well?"

Our memories could be selectively edited at any time -- but that might detract from the whole point of the simulation if its purpose is to figure out some kind of problem.


What's the view like from inside a time loop?

Anonymous said...

What's the view like from inside a time loop?

Same old same old. Deja vu all over again.

razorsmile said...

Deja vu would imply there's a portion of your consciousness, however minute, that is experiencing life outside the timeloop/construct.

That is a matter of opinion.

I think you'd only experience it once - the last time, when the time loop is "straightened" out.

Anonymous said...

"Yet scientists who are smart enough to create amazingly accurate simulations use them all the time to detect emergent phenomena."

But are those historical simulations or simulations of general conditions? Or is there no significant difference to the godlike intelligence?

Also, if you don't know enough to already be able to predict the emergent phenomena, how can you be so sure that you really knew enough to create an accurate historical simulation to begin with? If it's not accurate, how can the emergent phenomena be valid?

Mac said...

RGE--

Run as many simulations as possible, each with slightly different parameters. Edit. Splice. Fine-tune until you get it right . . . or as accurate as possible based on the observed outcome in the unsimulated world. (If you have enough computing power you could do it in virtually no time.)

TheUltimateCyn said...

What does it mean when you have deja vu all the time?

Mac said...

It might mean you're experiencing minor temporal lobe seizures.

Anonymous said...

HOWEVER (note the "big however") a simulation has to be a simulation OF something. If we are a simulation, what are we a simulation OF? Real human beings living off somewhere in a real universe? But how would this one be any different? And if it were, how will we know? (That pesky verifiability criterion again!)

razorsmile -- There's a brilliant, relatively early Heinlein short story about a guy stuck in a time loop who keeps returning and visiting himself at the point at which he entered the loop.

razorsmile said...

There were more and more of him each time?

razorsmile said...

What does it mean when you have deja vu all the time?

That you need a less repetitive life?

>8^p

Anonymous said...

No, but later and later (in the loop) versions of himself kept appearing one at a time until finally, the character "himself" enters the loop and then starts appearing to the earlier (pre-loop) version of himself.... His later selves are trying to warn him about the loop but of course they fail.... Wish I could remember the title!

JohnFen said...

For what it's worth, when I worked in a neuroscience lab, we make robust simulations of various portions of brains all the time, in addition to working with real brains.

One of the main reasons we used simulations was that you can test things with simulations that are impossible with the real thing. There are some things you want to test that, if they are even possible to cause in the real thing, would be so destructive that it would make the test worthless.

But "simulation" is a relative term. There has to be an original for the simulation to simulate. If, for example, we are all programs running inside of a computer (which I think is extremely likely), it is entirely possible that we are still originals, and not simulations at all. It also doesn't affect whether we or our surroundings are "real", as "real" is also a relative term. The thought of a unicorn is a real thought.

Anonymous said...

So maybe we're being run as a simulation because the "real thing" would never, for example, have massively destructive wars, and the Simulators (whoever you are!) want to see what happens when we do? I think this is kind of what Mac is getting at.

Mac said...

More or less, yes. Because our world doesn't look like it will be able to amass the resources to run a simulation anytime soon. So the civilization running the sim might be utopian in some respects, at least relative to our reality.

JohnFen said...

Well, any civilization running such a sim might, in fact, be exactly like us. It's probably not too unrealistic that there is at least a passing resemblance. The odds are that an intentionally made simulation is made to model something that is applicable to the designers.

Hey, there's another thought... what if we're an "accidental" simulation? This isn't quite, but comes near, my Current Working Hypothesis. You know, a bit like the natural nuclear fission piles archeologists find every so often.

Anonymous said...

"Run as many simulations as possible, each with slightly different parameters. Edit. Splice. Fine-tune until you get it right . . ."

I almost see, but perhaps not quite. So we could be one of many simulations, and apparently the godlike intelligence knows when it's gotten things right? Or the point behind the simulation might be to determine the impact of parameters on emergent phenomena? I still get the feeling that the godlike intelligence would merely reaffirm what it already knows, but perhaps I put too much weight on the godlike intelligence's quest for knowledge and understanding.

Anonymous said...

"Let's see what happens if we put somebody with basically totalitarian instincts in charge of a country that recently defeated totalitarianism on a world scale...."

Mac said...

I'm interested in this "Current Working Hypothesis" of which you speak.

razorsmile said...

" ... "accidental" simulation ...

Well, that explains a lot.

TheUltimateCyn said...

Mac said...
It might mean you're experiencing minor temporal lobe seizures.

Mac - so you think I am having friggin seizures?? I will give you a seizure! lol

I think Razorsmile is right... my life is too repetitious!

Anonymous said...

The first Roman emperor is said to have suffered from epilepsy. Whenever he had a fit, they called it a "Julius seizure."

TheUltimateCyn said...

I have NO [known] physical or mental misalignments! Just to make that clear! lol
unless you want to count celibacy [involuntary, of course] as an 'illness', which I do... lol

razorsmile said...

As one who has a surfeit of it's opposite, I can categorically tell you that celibacy is underrated.









Not! :D

TheUltimateCyn said...

I would rather it be gluttonous overabundance - lucky bastard...

:(

escort roma said...

Pretty effective piece of writing, much thanks for your article.