Sunday, March 02, 2008





Barack Obama: "I am a devout Christian. I have been a member of the same church for 20 years. I pray to Jesus every night."

This is why I don't vote.

12 comments:

Anonymous said...

He's playing the game Mac. You of all people should know that for better or for worse, you can't ignore the religion card in politics these days. Due to the recent smear he had to make that move (even if he's not as devout as all that).

Clinton scares the crap out of me for a number of reasons but primarily it is her husbands "buddy-buddy" relationship with the Bush family that disturbs me. I mean honestly, how the hell can you stand for Democracy and a liberal viewpoint yet have dinner and hang out with what equates to the anti-christ on a regular basis? It just doesn't make sense.

I think the world needs Obama on a few levels and given the choice he's really all we've got. The old paradigm needs a shake up and an African American president who is for the most part "outside" the normal political circles is just what America/the world needs.

Denny

Mac said...

Of course I know he's playing the faith card. Given the system we have, it's all he can do.

But I wish we had a system in which one didn't need to play the religion game in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Oh I completely agree with you there.

Denny

dad2059 said...

The religion ploy has been used to great measure since Carter and St. Raygun, it gets the fundies votes.

Of course promising the Apocalypse gets the fundie vote as well.

Just ask G.W. Bu$hco.

Anonymous said...

Haha! I thought this SAME exact thing when I read the article this morning.

USA! USA!

-RG

Bsti said...

How can you trust the judgement, indeed intelligence, of someone who may run the "Most Powerful Nation On Earth" and prays to an imaginary being every night?

Anonymous said...

I don't care what his religion is. There are very rational people who think it is insane to believe there is a face on Mars. We all have our beliefs. I personally hope that Hillary wins, but I can vote for Obama without holding my nose.

Stan

Mac said...

Bsti--

How can you trust the judgement, indeed intelligence, of someone who may run the "Most Powerful Nation On Earth" and prays to an imaginary being every night?

Bingo.

Stan--

There are very rational people who think it is insane to believe there is a face on Mars.

Personally, I don't "believe" there is a face on Mars. I think there's compelling evidence that points to the possibility.

It's hardly "belief" if you commit to the possibility of being proven wrong.

W.M. Bear said...

It's hardly "belief" if you commit to the possibility of being proven wrong.

I beg to differ, Mac. From my perspective, I would say that you believe that the face is artificial but that your belief (unlike that of, say, Richard Hoagland) is a conditional as opposed to a dogmatic belief.

Believe it or not, I actually discovered conditional belief by hanging at PB and reading your thoughts on the dual subjects of UFOs and Mars.

Please believe I'm not trying to suck up or anything. I know that you didn't invent conditional belief or anything but this is where I really discovered it.

Und zo. So what I disagree with is your statement that "It's hardly "belief" if you commit to the possibility of being proven wrong." I think you're misidentifying ALL belief (including the conditional variety) with dogmatic belief. The great thing about conditional is exactly that it recognizes that it IS "mere" belief (as opposed to actual knowledge).

Dogmatic belief, on the other hand, as we see in both evangelical wingnuts (which Obama, BTW, is not) and their atheistic opposition, ABOSLUTIZES doctrine into dogma and, in the process, does refuse to admit even the possibility that it could be wrong. It is this kind of dogmatic belief that is the enemy of logical, critical thought and even of inspired intuition.

So, to put it accurately, I believe (as I think you do) in the POSSIBILITY of that there was an ancient Martian civilization that left ruins such as the Face, as well as artifacts on a much smaller scale. And I think there is good evidence that such a civilization once inhabited the Red Planet. But would I defend this idea to the death? To the infliction of a slight flesh wound, maybe.

I also believe in the possibility of what I like to call the "Mindlike Infinity" -- some like the Demiurge creator of the ancients (especially neoplatonic occultists). To all intents and purposes, you could call this meta-being "God" but I don't like to because the term carries way to much historical/cultural baggage. But I also believe that believe entails the fact that it is not absurd to believe in God in some form or other.

That said, I would just point out that when most people say they believe in God, what they are really saying is that they believe in a CONCEPT of God (usually in the form of some dogma). My conditional belief described above is also belief in a concept of God but I recognize it as such and do not start going around ordering people around in His (or, Her) name.

Thank you for shopping Wal-Mart....

Mac said...

Of course you could say that I "believe in the possibility" -- but is that truly *belief*?

Calling it "conditional belief" seems perilously close to waffling to me. I maintain that belief of any sort needs to be weeded out -- and the sooner the better.

Anonymous said...

How about calling it "holding an opinion"? I can have many opinions, but still be open to challenging those opinions if information is obtained not previously considered when that opinion was originally formed.

But clearly, my opinion is not a fact, does not represent the real truth about anything and I would not present it as such. It's just an opinion!

Michael

W.M. Bear said...

Calling it "conditional belief" seems perilously close to waffling to me. I maintain that belief of any sort needs to be weeded out -- and the sooner the better.

Ah, Mac, alas, very little of what we think we know is really anything OTHER than belief if, by "knowledge" you mean absolute certainty. Philosophers have consistently demonstrated for the last several centuries that we can be said to "know" very little in this absolute sense. The best we can do is make a good case for what we believe. The problem with evangelicals is just that they DON'T (because they can't) make a good case for their beliefs. They believe whatever they damn well please and to hell with you (literally) if you don't agree.

Frankly, I feel that various researchers (including yourself) have made a good case for keeping open the possibility of an ancient civilization on Mars. Therefore my belief in that possibility is real belief, grounded in solid evidence....